The Trinity in The Bible

Hello everyone and welcome back to Deeper Waters where we are diving into the Ocean of Truth. We’ve just finished our Trinitarian Commentary so I thought we should go and take a look at how our whole project went overall. First though, I ask for my usual prayer requests. I first off ask that you pray for me for my continued Christlikeness and that I won’t have as much anxiety and worry in my life. Second, I ask for prayers in my financial situation. Third, I ask for prayers in a third related area of my life.  God knows. For now, let’s see what we learned in our look through the Bible.

I certainly hope you learned a lot. I know I did. We’ve been through several verses and seen how they point to the doctrine of the Trinity. Even if a verse did not teach the whole Trinity with great strength, we found that there were several pieces that went together and helped form this doctrine.

That’s something that needs to be remembered in this. We are not talking about a doctrine that is just one verse in the whole of Scripture that settles everything. Too often in our studies of the Bible, we think there ought to be one verse that settles everything. In reality, that is rarely the case and the more important the doctrine, the more Scripture we will need.

However, a comment on a recent blog had the commenter pointing to Col. 1:15 and Rev. 3:14 and saying that Jesus was created. The problem is that those are verses that we have to explain. Sure. Of course, we also saw that those verses can be explained and they form a coherent whole. However, it’s the Arian or the modalist that has to explain several other verses.

The reason is that this is a systematic doctrine. It’s formed not by looking at one verse, but seeing the whole tapestry of Scripture. What does the Bible say about who God is? What does the Bible say about who Jesus is? What does the Bible say about who the Holy Spirit is? When we get through all of these questions, we find the Trinity is there. The church did this right. We can try to re-invent the wheel all we want, but we will end up with the Trinity also.

So what do we do? From here, we learn about what the Trinity means. Does God tell us who he is for no reason? Is the Trinity going to be a doctrine that we just use to beat up Jehovah’s Witnesses regularly? Or rather, is the doctrine of God going to be something dynamic in our lives that changes how we live everyday?

Tomorrow, I would like to start looking at that some in to how the doctrine of the Trinity relates to us. What difference will it make in our lives? After all, if we learn a doctrine, that’s good, but if the doctrine doesn’t make any change in our lives, it’s only a means for increasing our arrogance.

We will start tomorrow.

22 Responses to “The Trinity in The Bible”

  1. stev1parr Says:

    The only conclusion that you come to is that the Trinity Doctrine (which you seek to promote) is flawed. You can not take references out of context to support a man-made teaching. If the Trinity Doctrine was something taught and supported by scripture, then all scripture inspired by God (2 Tim 3:16-17) would be in harmony with such a teaching, not just a few.

    The term “dead” is absolute in its meaning when used in the scriptures to describe a person having no conscious, feeling, action, and thinking (Eccl 9:5, 10). If Jesus is God Almighty (Jehovah), how could he raise himself from the dead? How could he think to do so without the capacity to be conscious, knowing that he is dead? Who did Jesus pray to for strength and wisdom? And when Jesus was getting baptized, who voice confirmed Jesus from heaven?

    Jehovah is the Most High over all the earth (Psalm 83:18). Jesus is the Son of the Most High (Luke 1:26-33). Two different persons. One is the Creator and the other was created.

    • apologianick Says:

      Wow. You know, if you’d actually read the series, you might see these kinds of questions may be answered. Interesting you go to Ecclesiastes since Solomon is describing life without God. (One wonders how all things existed by Christ if he ceased to exist.)

      And of course, this idea that since Jesus was human, he can’t be deity. Already dealt with throughout. When you get a real argument, come back here.

      • Steve Says:

        Apologianick,

        You missed the point. You can not have it both ways. Either Jesus, the person, the human was dead or he was not. The Bible says he was dead. If he was dead, he could not raise himself to life. The only way Jesus lived again was through the power of someone else, his father, Jehovah, the one mentioned at Psalms 83:18. It is this same power that Jesus will use to resurrect millions from the grave since Matthew 28:18 states after Jesus was resurrected, “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.”

        Where and from whom did he get this authority of which he never had? From the person who resurrected him, his father, Jehovah, the one mentioned at Isaiah 45:18.

        And, where are you getting this stuff about Solomon describing life without God from? There is nothing associated with Eccl 9:5, 10 that would directly or indirectly support what you are saying. Stop making the word of God invalid with this mindless philosophy.

        The point that Solomon is making has to do with MAN serving Jehovah and doing all he can while alive. Once dead, you will not be able to serve or do anything. You will not be conscious, have knowledge, have wisdom, or power to do anything because you will cease to exist.

        There is no debating the true. Jesus and Jehovah are two separate persons. One was created and the other is the Creator.

  2. apologianick Says:

    Your idea of dead implies non-existence. I do not see that, especially since Col. 1 tells us that by him all things exist. If Jesus did not exist, then all things would have ceased to exist. I have no problem saying he was dead in that his soul and body were separated from one another.

    Where did he get the authority? From God the Father. I have no problem as a Trinitarian affirming that. No Trinitarian would.

    Where do I get that about Ecclesiastes? From reading scholarly material on the book. Do you think it’s a biblical belief to say that everything is meaningless as Solomon does in chapter 1, or is he talking about life under the sun?

    Yes. The Father and the Son are two separate persons. If you don’t realize that Trinitarians affirm that, you need to go back and learn what we believe. I’d have no problem saying the Son is created. It just can’t be created in a temporal sense. He is God’s Wisdom after all.

    • Steve Says:

      Apologianick,

      I am not implying. This is what the Bible teaches and supports through all 66 books. Every living being that died in the 66 books of the Bible became none existence just as Solomon states thier condition at Eccl 9:5, 10. The ones that were brought back to life did not accomplish this themselves. Jehovah’s power, through whom he chose to use, resurrected those persons.

      Col 1:15 states,” He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation”. Again, Jesus is the first of Jehovah’s creation. Through Jesus, as Jehovah’s master worker, all other things were created, not sustained. Revelation 4:11 tells us that it is Jehovah God, Jesus’ father and creator, who is to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because he (Jehovah) created all things, and because His (Jehovah) will they existed and were created. In other words, Jehovah is the one that creates and sustains through his will. Jesus as well as all life and energy exist per Jehovah’s will, not Jesus. That is how Jesus could be dead (non-existence) and life continued. If Jehovah were to die, then everything that he has created and sustained through his will, including Jesus, would perish with him.

      Keep in mind that Solomon was the son of King David, who was wealthy to start. Solomon did not ask Jehovah for wealth or long life. He asked for wisdom to govern Israel. As a result, Jehovah blesses him with not only wisdom, but with untold prosperity and a peaceful reign. Solomon was the only imperfect man that Jehovah blessed with His wisdom and riches beyond what any person had every acquired up to that time.

      As a result, Solomon was able to reflect on life, much of which was his own. This is the reason why he stated that striving after material things was vanity. He concluded that the whole obligation of man was to fear Jehovah (reverential fear) and keep his commandments. One can not do this if they are dead (non-existence). Therefore, Solomon rightly states what a person should be doing while alive because at death, all your activities stop, whether good or bad (Eccl 9:5, 10).

      Jesus was dead (non-existence) and resurrected by his father, Jehovah. This is what the Bible teaches.

    • Steve Says:

      Apologianick,

      The Scriptures teach that Jesus Christ is not a trinitarian co-person with God the Father, but is a distinct person, the Son of God. The truth to this entire conversation is that no distinct worship is to be rendered to Jesus Christ now glorified in heaven. Our worship is to go to Jehovah God. However, we show the proper regard for God’s only-begotten Son by rendering our worship to God through and in the name of Jesus Christ. Even now when we kneel in prayer, as Paul did according to Ephesians 3:14-19, we offer prayer in the name of Jesus Christ in obedience to his own directions (John 15:16; 16:23-26), but the prayer itself is addressed, not to Jesus, but to God his Father, Jehovah. In this way we keep things in their relative positions.

      You put yourself in a very dangerous position. The evidence is indisputable that the dogma of the Trinity is not found in the Bible, nor is it in harmony with what the Bible teaches. You are grossly misrepresenting the true God. You keep twisting Jehovah’s word to support a man-made doctrine.

      The Israelites did not worship Jehovah as a triune god and the Jews during Roman domination did not worship Jehovah as a triune god (even though they stop using Jehovah’s name). Neither did the Christian in Bible time worship Jehovah as a triune god. The Bible speaks of “the Father,” “the Son” and also “the holy spirit.” But it does not present them as a triune God.

      It is simple. Jehovah created humans, animals, insects, angels (including Jesus), etc. They are all the works of his hands, so worship is due him and him alone, not the things he has created (including Jesus).

  3. apologianick Says:

    Stevie: I am not implying. This is what the Bible teaches and supports through all 66 books. Every living being that died in the 66 books of the Bible became none existence just as Solomon states thier condition at Eccl 9:5, 10. The ones that were brought back to life did not accomplish this themselves. Jehovah’s power, through whom he chose to use, resurrected those persons.

    Reply: No. You are still just begging the question. Paul said he desired to die and be with Christ. He didn’t say he desired to die and be non-existent. 2 Cor. 5 tells us absent from the body means present with the Lord. The thief was told by Jesus that that day, he would be with Christ in Paradise. Jesus told the Sadducees that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were alive. Also, do you believe all is meaningless? That’s what Ecclesiastes says.

    Stevie: Col 1:15 states,” He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation”. Again, Jesus is the first of Jehovah’s creation.

    REply: Firstborn relates to pre-eminence and ontology. It does not relate to chronology. The same applies with firstborn from the dead.

    Stevie: Through Jesus, as Jehovah’s master worker, all other things were created, not sustained. Revelation 4:11 tells us that it is Jehovah God, Jesus’ father and creator, who is to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because he (Jehovah) created all things, and because His (Jehovah) will they existed and were created. In other words, Jehovah is the one that creates and sustains through his will. Jesus as well as all life and energy exist per Jehovah’s will, not Jesus. That is how Jesus could be dead (non-existence) and life continued. If Jehovah were to die, then everything that he has created and sustained through his will, including Jesus, would perish with him.

    REply: That is not what the text says. The text says that in him, all things consist. If Jesus was not, all things would cease to be. Also, do you think Jesus is God’s wisdom?

    Stevie: Keep in mind that Solomon was the son of King David, who was wealthy to start. Solomon did not ask Jehovah for wealth or long life. He asked for wisdom to govern Israel. As a result, Jehovah blesses him with not only wisdom, but with untold prosperity and a peaceful reign. Solomon was the only imperfect man that Jehovah blessed with His wisdom and riches beyond what any person had every acquired up to that time.

    Reply: And this is supposed to help your case how?

    Stevie: As a result, Solomon was able to reflect on life, much of which was his own. This is the reason why he stated that striving after material things was vanity. He concluded that the whole obligation of man was to fear Jehovah (reverential fear) and keep his commandments. One can not do this if they are dead (non-existence). Therefore, Solomon rightly states what a person should be doing while alive because at death, all your activities stop, whether good or bad (Eccl 9:5, 10).

    Reply: He also says in verse 6 that they will never take part on anything again that goes on under the sun. There goes the doctrine of resurrection then. Oh wait. You don’t believe that verse is true then do you?

    Stevie: Jesus was dead (non-existence) and resurrected by his father, Jehovah. This is what the Bible teaches.

    Reply: I suppose you think repeating it counts as an argument.

    Stevie: The Scriptures teach that Jesus Christ is not a trinitarian co-person with God the Father, but is a distinct person, the Son of God.

    Reply: Yeah. We agree he’s a distinct person….

    Stevie: The truth to this entire conversation is that no distinct worship is to be rendered to Jesus Christ now glorified in heaven. Our worship is to go to Jehovah God. However, we show the proper regard for God’s only-begotten Son by rendering our worship to God through and in the name of Jesus Christ. Even now when we kneel in prayer, as Paul did according to Ephesians 3:14-19, we offer prayer in the name of Jesus Christ in obedience to his own directions (John 15:16; 16:23-26), but the prayer itself is addressed, not to Jesus, but to God his Father, Jehovah. In this way we keep things in their relative positions.

    Reply: I have no problem with prayer being in the name of Jesus. He’s our broker after all. I do have a problem with saying he’s not to be worshipped. Revelation 5:13-14 and Philippians 2:11 disagree.

    Stevie: You put yourself in a very dangerous position. The evidence is indisputable that the dogma of the Trinity is not found in the Bible, nor is it in harmony with what the Bible teaches. You are grossly misrepresenting the true God. You keep twisting Jehovah’s word to support a man-made doctrine.

    REply: You haven’t begun to touch the arguments. Just the same old tired Watchtower drivel I’ve seen elsewhere. My Trinitarian faith is secure.

    Stevie: The Israelites did not worship Jehovah as a triune god and the Jews during Roman domination did not worship Jehovah as a triune god (even though they stop using Jehovah’s name). Neither did the Christian in Bible time worship Jehovah as a triune god. The Bible speaks of “the Father,” “the Son” and also “the holy spirit.” But it does not present them as a triune God.

    Reply: The Jews also did not celebrate the Lord’s Supper or believe in the atonement through the death of the Messiah. Progressive revelation anyone?

    Stevie: It is simple. Jehovah created humans, animals, insects, angels (including Jesus), etc. They are all the works of his hands, so worship is due him and him alone, not the things he has created (including Jesus).

    Reply: Hebrews 1:10-12 says creation is the work of the hands of Jesus.

    If you want to continue this, come to TheologyWeb.com. It’ll be fun.

  4. fromthesunrising Says:

    Please see this link to see the truth about Jehovah and Jesus:

    http://fromthesunrising.wordpress.com/2010/10/08/574/

  5. fromthesunrising Says:

    comment me after reading these:

    http://fromthesunrising.wordpress.com/2010/10/08/574/

    http://fromthesunrising.wordpress.com/2010/10/05/the-underlying-truth-in-john-11/

    http://fromthesunrising.wordpress.com/2010/09/28/trinitya-false-doctrine-of-a-false-church/

    http://fromthesunrising.wordpress.com/2010/09/28/trinitya-false-doctrine-of-a-false-church/

    http://fromthesunrising.wordpress.com/2010/09/14/the-truth-in-colossians-11617/

    http://fromthesunrising.wordpress.com/2010/09/14/acts-2028-in-nwt-and-other-bible-versions/

    I suggest you read all and if your done let me hear your comment…

    • apologianick Says:

      First one….

      Um. Yeah. We admit that the Father and Son are different persons. I don’t see how the verses you’ve shown have broken down the doctrine of the Trinity.

      Second one I see no references. Excuse me if I think I’ll stick with Murray J. Harris, Daniel Wallace, Spiros Zodhiates, and others who actually know the language.

      Third. We do not believe in three gods but one God and I can have Jesus submitting to the Father without a contradiction.

      Fourth. Same as above.

      Fifth. Firstborn refers not to chronology but to superiority in the position.

      Sixth. Acts 20:28 doesn’t mean much to me as a Trinitarian verse.

      Really. If you want to discuss these further, feel free to come to Deeper Waters and challenge there. I’ll even start a thread for you personally.

  6. fromthesunrising Says:

    Unless the Trinitarians can explain the plain textual evidence showing Jesus is separate with Jehovah at the same time I would agree that you are correct but since they cannot explain these plain verses it would only be true that the trinity doctrine cannot stand with the truth presented in the bible. You are just keeping to say that Trinity is correct YET in yourself you certainly doubt. You cannot lie because Trinitarians cannot lie with this truth in the bible. This is the moment of truth! 🙂

    • apologianick Says:

      Let’s see. Trinitarians agree that Jesus is WITH the Father. What is the problem?

      However, you keep claiming I doubt. Evidence of this? Not a bit. The truth is, I don’t doubt the Trinity at all. Now if you think you have the guts to discuss this topic, feel free to come to Theologyweb.com and look for me, ApologiaPhoenix. I’ll make a thread just for you in the Deeper Waters section. In fact, I think I’ll do that right now.

      • fromthesunrising Says:

        So how would you explain that Jesus is with the Father? We need the explanations from Trinatarians on how do you explain John 1:1b. You can claim the Word is God (the Almighty) yet you cannot explain the Word was with God. In order for you to claim that Jesus is God (the Almighty0 then YOU MUST explain also the meaning of THE WORD WAS WITH GOD. In my blog concerning this phrase I explained that it could be both are present at a particular time and the other one is that the Word had supported God or on his side to support him. Either of the two still there are two persons involved. And this is not only one verse that attacks the Trinitarians. As I have said you can see it in my blog entitled “Trinity: A False Doctrine of A False Church”. In order for you to claim that Trinity is biblical then you must explain these plain textual evidences in the Bible. You jump to a conclusion that Trinity is valid and true yet you ignore those verses that breaks it. I just hope you see the truth my friend for it’s never too late. Yes, you may say you don’t doubt before but I am pretty sure you will doubt it sooner or later….

      • fromthesunrising Says:

        I suggest you read again and think seriously the verses presented on this blog:

        http://fromthesunrising.wordpress.com/2010/09/28/trinitya-false-doctrine-of-a-false-church/

        We need the explanation that contradicts with the Trinity Doctrine. That’s all we need to support your claim… I am sorry but this is a must for all Trinitarians… I suggest you address this matter to other Trinitarians… I am just showing the thing that you might see…

      • fromthesunrising Says:

        I would not go to a further debate with you.. Show me in your blog here that Trinity is biblical. You are already in your own site why address me to another site of yours or the others. Present your explanations with the preposition “with” in John 1:1b and the other verses in my blog entitled “Trinity: A False Doctrine of A False Church” then you can post your explanations to whatever site you want including theologyweb.com. Or should I say, address this questions of mine to ALL TRINITARIANS and work for an explanation regarding my questions and send it to my blogs… to prove your doctrine… That’s all I need… You are proud that you can defend your doctrine in your site when in fact this is your site also… I have to be proud also about the truth in order for the OTHER PROUD WHO DOESN’T KNOW THE TRUTH SHOULD BE TURN DOWN!!! for I must!

      • apologianick Says:

        If you won’t go to a further debate, then it seems that you are the one in doubt. I’m willing to put my beliefs to public scrutiny on a public forum. Apparently, you’re not able to.

        When you have some guts, you can come face me again.

      • fromthesunrising Says:

        The TRUTH is clear as clear as the sunlight… You cannot prove to me and to the world even here that your belief is right….

        There is no need to show more to you… It is your ability of thinking that will show you what is truth…. and it is your heart that will decide for the truth to shine upon you….

      • apologianick Says:

        That’s right. The truth is as clear which is why I bring it out to be shown. You however don’t seem to think the truth of Arianism can be defended in a public sphere so you’d prefer to sit back and psychoanalyze me.

        If you can make the argument with just me, you can make it in public. If you’re unable to do that, then I’d avoid posting again with psychoanalysis. You haven’t written anything that myself and other Trinitarians answered long ago, but your hesitancy to show up in public tells me you don’t think your beliefs can last under a microscope.

      • fromthesunrising Says:

        No, I am not psychoanalyzing you. It is the bible that shows the truth to everyone not only with you but to other trinitarians in the world. again the scholars you are pointing as well as the others including you are not presenting yet any explanation with what John 1:1b means. You jump to a conclusion that the word is god( almighty) yet you ignore the preceding phrase and not having an explanation of it? why would you claim that the word is god (almighty) when in facts it breaks through the second phrase? just what i have said true wisdom will not break the wisdom itself. explain the many verses in the bible that uses the preposition “with” in relation to the father (uppercase emphasize) and jesus. that’s all the answer in order for the trinity stands. present a study on john 1:1b in line with the grammatical explanation of the usage of the preposition “with”. I suggest you ask even the trinitarians english professors and let us see how they will answer it. should anyone of them can present a study concerning the preposition “with” to defend the trinity in relation to john 1:1 b then I may believe that you have right to claim that trinity is an implicit thought of jesus and the early christians in the bible? i hope you will have time to present not only with me but to the world the necessity to prove yourself against arianism. unless you cannot show any supporting study based on grammar then it is only true that trinity lacks its credbility based on contextual evidence in the bible which the grammar has a very big part in understanding a certain matter…. good bye for we can see now of what is really truth… a psychoanylysis which I am using to you? no, it is a grammatical force that you don’t accept… a grammatical force which is present and used in the bible. how can you stand against the language that used in the bible? does not god (uppercase empasize) did not use a language in its clear way to prove the real teachings of the bible? how could you say implicitly that god (uppercase empasize) is being blind with the grammatical language he is using? or is it you who are making your self blind and forcing yourself to be blind with the truth and with the ways of god (uppercase emphasize) that he is using. should god (the father) act without knowing all of these? should god (the father) do not know the grammatical force in john 1:1b in which he was the one who said it? why for a certain reason as you claim that he will ignore what he said through john in john 1:1b? is it not his words show what is truth and what is explicit? or is it you who makes blurd what is explicit in his words? a psychoanalysis you are telling me that i am using to you? is it not the analysis that needs thinking of what i am saying to you is more important and true??? a psychoanaylysis you are accusing that i am using to you yet you don’t even know that god (the father) show us the ability of thinking to analyze everything using our mind? are you accusing me that i am reversing the false as you claim that it is true? then why not prove to me and to all and to god (the father) that your defending belief is true? yes, i have done this, not to make you feel weak or the trinitarians but to make strong what the truth really presents through the bible. it now depends on you on how you will show yourself to the public… to stand with what the right or to lye down with the false… i thank you for this opportunity… I am very thankful with you for this wonderful conversation…. i appreciate your standpoints however, i just hope you see my standpoint which is in accordance with the bible… i know you may answer back to prove your claims as to your standpoint… well, it is not you or even myself that will judge this matter for there are many eyes in the world that looks this matter…. let the people with true understanding even not a jw give his judgment on this matter… goodbye and thank you…. this is another history that will look upon by the people with many differences… i hope that differences will give us a way to see the very different understanding about the truth…
        good bye…. may the truth shine to each of everyone…. 🙂

  7. fromthesunrising Says:

    Even the ordinary English professors would agree with my thinking when it comes to the usage of preposition “with”.I suggest you ask this matter from any English professors in your country. As long there is an English professor that will say that “with” is not something which is not present with you then maybe I would agree with Trinitarians. Obviously, no one would! The scholars you are pointing should have study first the grammar rule or grammatical force of this words; “we”; “him”; “with” and “come to”. If the scholars you are pointing to me can present a study in grammar that will support the trinity doctrine using these words then trinitarians may stand. Can you?

  8. fromthesunrising Says:

    I am not against with the people who promote the trinity doctrine what I am against with is the doctrine itself. I am sorry if my words seems to be harsh but I cannot lie with my feelings with those people who are promoting lies. They are misled by Satan who is the Father of lie. This is a matter of acceptance and refusal. If your are not a leader in your church why would you tie yourself with your church. You are not bound to your church and you can free yourself from them. I am speaking in general Trinitarians who may read this and not only with you. There are only two options: to accept and leave the false or to deny the truth and embrace the false. We can choose whatever we want. We have a free will. So don’t someone misinterpret my actions of revealing the truth to those people who are mislead after all they may have chance to know more about the truth… Peace with all! I am here to present the truth not to criticize the false ideology of the people. If it may sounds bad well I am sorry but if this bad can bring truth to some why not be?

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